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 Post subject: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:38 am 
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Was just wondering if there were any victims out there of the TNT/Craig's List/Western Union scam out there that have actually tried to pursue the location of the money wire through Western Union. I'm trying to figure out if all the receptions are being made at the same location. I was taken in a Craig's List laptop scam last week (obviously before I even knew that web sites like this existed). It wasn't a lot of money ($300), and I know I'll never see it again. What gets me is the fact that it happened, it's still happening, and people know about it. That, paired with the fact that my name and address is also known by the scammer. It's that latter fact alone that gets me the most upset. Although I'm sure it's over-reacting, but in the back of my mind I think of my wife and kids, and ultimately, our security. I don't like to feel vulnerable, and specially, afraid.

SO, I decided to dig a little on the internet, and see if there is any way (either alone or with the help of sites like this and people victimized like myself, as well as agencies created to fight these scammers) that we can stop them.

After some correspondence with Western Union, who I believe has to be the link to cracking this particular scam, they've really given me the run-around. What I was wanting to know from others victimized by this scam, is who went through the process of finding out the exact location and identity of the receiver of the wire transfer. Oddly, Western Union repeatedly told me that they are not permitted to release the name of the receiver to me unless i get a subpoena order from an attorney or have a law enforcement group contact them. This confused me b/c I was under the impression that when i filled out the paperwork for the transfer, i specified under RECEIVER: the name of the person to be picking up the funds on the other end. SO, with Western Union being so reluctant to reveal the identity of the sender, I'm left to believe that in fact can be someone besides the person I intended it to be? Western Union DID in fact give me the time and place of the reception of the wire, however with hundreds, maybe several hundred locations, just telling me "London" was of no help.

What I'm getting at, is that if these funds are being picked up at the same Western Union Agent station, and this scammer is still at it (he/she has already re-posted the same item on Craig's List with the same story about being in the UK), should it be possible, we the assistance of Western Union, to send a wire to this individual and have them apprehended at the time of reception?? I know, it would take the cooperation of Western Union, who is making money on this scam regardless of their involvement. Even if the local law enforcement agency was needed or even the appropriate Federal agency, wouldn't it be another small step?

I don't know, maybe i've seen too many spy movies and need to get a grip on reality. But obviously the people behind these scams have watched the same movies, and are using 'reality' to blind their potential victims.

Freshly Victimized,

mumbs


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:02 pm 
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mumbs wrote:
Was just wondering if there were any victims out there of the TNT/Craig's List/Western Union scam out there that have actually tried to pursue the location of the money wire through Western Union.


The problem is that if the scammer has the WU transer number and knows the correct information, even without an ID or being at the location you sent the money to, he can pick up the money. You could send the money to Bob in Texas, but if Bill in France knows the transer number, the amount of the transfer and the answer to the secret question he can sill pick up the money, even though his ID would show that he is not Bob and he is not in Texas.

Quote:
paired with the fact that my name and address is also known by the scammer. It's that latter fact alone that gets me the most upset. Although I'm sure it's over-reacting, but in the back of my mind I think of my wife and kids, and ultimately, our security. I don't like to feel vulnerable, and specially, afraid
.

I tell people to be aware of their surroundings, but if the scammers were going to come to the United States to "get someone" it would not be over a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars.

Quote:
What I was wanting to know from others victimized by this scam, is who went through the process of finding out the exact location and identity of the receiver of the wire transfer.


There really is no way of knowing. Even if they DO show an ID, it is probably fake or stolen.


Quote:
This confused me b/c I was under the impression that when i filled out the paperwork for the transfer, i specified under RECEIVER: the name of the person to be picking up the funds on the other end. SO, with Western Union being so reluctant to reveal the identity of the sender, I'm left to believe that in fact can be someone besides the person I intended it to be?


You are correct . . . the story of Bob and Bill above shows that.

Quote:
What I'm getting at, is that if these funds are being picked up at the same Western Union Agent station, and this scammer is still at it (he/she has already re-posted the same item on Craig's List with the same story about being in the UK), should it be possible, we the assistance of Western Union, to send a wire to this individual and have them apprehended at the time of reception?? I know, it would take the cooperation of Western Union, who is making money on this scam regardless of their involvement. Even if the local law enforcement agency was needed or even the appropriate Federal agency, wouldn't it be another small step?


But now you are talking about Law Enforcement in another country. Over here, we can say "That is wrong!" all we want, but if the law enforcement in London, Canada or Nigeria does not want to do anything about it, since the actual "crime" took place in their country, there is nothing that can be done.

I understand all of your frustration and questions . . . I asked many of them after I became a victim of the counterfeit cashier's check scam, and since then I have talked to MANY people in government and law enforcement to get the answers to the questions.

We cannot stop them over there, but we can educate people over here!

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Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:16 am 
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Shawn,

Thanks for the reply- obviously one of reason as well as understanding. I let a little too much emotion show in my previous post -- got caught up, specially on the part of my safety. BUT, I'm not sure I was talking about my 'physical' safety as much as my 'feeling' of being safe. We all know that cyber crimes know no boundaries or borders. And I'm not so worried about this particular scammer as I am worried about the internet and everything now that is being transferred on it. I have always been one with an excellent 'physical' situational awareness (looking over people, always having an out, thinking a step or three ahead, etc) but now I realize, one must possess this same type of awareness on a cyber-level so to speak.

So, getting back to my previous post. I carried on a chat with a Western Union representative yesterday who repeatedly told me they could only divulge the name of the receiver if I got an attorney to fill out a subpoena request or got the law involved. In the same breath, when I asked him if in fact the receiver had to be the person whose name was on the form I sent out, he said "yes". Obviously, he was incorrect, and thus the reason for the identity possibly being different. Therefore, if he is requesting the transfer # to be emailed, he is most likely not using the same name with every scam on the front end. This way he doesn't have to make a fake ID for every pickup. BUT, and as you stated, he is using a fake, which he must be limited in, to make the actual reception, it would make sense that he probably only has a limited supply of these and may tend to use the same one on more than one occasion. I guess what I'm trying to get is just one or two people (there's probably many more) who would be willing to take the steps to get a subpoena for the info from Western Union. I've got an attorney in the family who could assist in this. Then we could start looking at the data. The next piece of info is the 'actual' location of the wire pick-up. With this same subpoena Western Union would also divulge the location (and we could only hope that there were instances of the same facility being used for that as well.

With your experience in talking to law enforcement, victims and others, do you think that Western Union would even consider cooperating in nabbing this scammer/s? I mean, if you had a name (fake or not) and you had a location, wouldn't there be a small chance Western Union could notify the authorities if Joe Scammer walked in to the Money Shop and showed identification that had been flagged as fake or stolen? Isn't just being in possession and using a fake ID illegal?

Well Shawn, I guess I'm just bent on the idea that if someone can pull off such a scam (and not only once but repeatedly) using the internet and it's resources, couldn't that same person be caught by someone (with the help of many others), using the same internet and resources? At least all the way up until the physical apprehension.

OK, so perhaps I've got my head in the clouds and need to have someone ground me. But I figure there is no harm in making some lofty suggestions and then have someone with practical knowledge like yourself hone it down and maybe find something usable. What do ya think?

mumbs


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:19 pm
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You will get no help from Western Union, they printed the discalimers on their form. They consider that an appropriate action, they will cooperate no further.

You have to look at it from Law Enforcement's prospective, the crime happened here, a bad check was deposited , or money sent for a listing on CL. The money was picked up on the other side of the Atlantic, how do you get two law enforcement agencies from halfway around the world to work together over even say $50,0000 loss and many of the losses are much smaller ($300)?

Is it realistic to think a person will be arrested in Africa, where he has committed no crime and flown all the way to America to face a very minor felony or even a misdeamenor charge?

You are upset and feel personally attacked by the scammers, but in the real world this is a very minor crime.


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Posts: 2921
mumbs,
I can really relate to everything in your posts . . . I was there . . . I thought that it would be easy if we knew that the money was being picked up at a WU in Nigeria that a sting could be set up . . . put someone under cover working in the WU, when the scammer comes in to pick up the money then you have him . . . easy, right? Well, even thought that is how it works in the movies and on TV, it is not how it happens in the real world. The law enforcement HERE in the United States can KNOW what is going on, but the crime happened in Nigeria, so they cannot go there to arrest the person . . . and the law enforcement THERE is corrupt . . . the scammers could be paying off the law enforcement to NOT do anything. And why doesn't the government do something about all of this? They don't want to stop something that is bringing billions of dollars into their country.

I am not trying to crush your dreams, but I do want you to know that I have thought these very same thoughts, and in the time since 2002 when we became victims I have learned why things cannot happen the way we hope that they would.

This is why education is the key to stopping these scams. We cannot do anything legally, so we let everyone know about the scams and what to look for.

_________________
Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:56 am 
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Shawn & Reverse,

I hear both of you, loud and clear. And yes, I'm aware of the complication of an 'overseas' transaction, as well as the difference between reality and what happens in the movies (and yes, I do love those movies where such things like this happen and are then foiled). And although I'm new at getting scammed, i'm not new to reality and 'the way things work'. OK, so we (I) would get no help from Wester Union, which is understandable, for they are like your Nigerian example, making money off of this. However, I'm still curious, of the 40+ people who have read this post, how many have tried or would be willing to try to get the info from WU regarding the specific time/place/individual who picked up the money??? One way of stopping scammers is to make it harder for them to carry out there scam. Now if Western Union is paying these transfers out to individuals other than those whose name is the name I (or any sender) has written on the form at time of transfer, then they are at fault. Even if this scammer is presenting Western Union with the correct transfer #, he is still not identifying himself.

OK, if I'm starting to irritate, I apologize. Just trying to exhaust an angle, and just haven't been convinced yet that I have.


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:52 am 
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Location: WI
mumbs wrote:
Shawn & Reverse,

I hear both of you, loud and clear. And yes, I'm aware of the complication of an 'overseas' transaction, as well as the difference between reality and what happens in the movies (and yes, I do love those movies where such things like this happen and are then foiled). And although I'm new at getting scammed, i'm not new to reality and 'the way things work'. OK, so we (I) would get no help from Wester Union, which is understandable, for they are like your Nigerian example, making money off of this. However, I'm still curious, of the 40+ people who have read this post, how many have tried or would be willing to try to get the info from WU regarding the specific time/place/individual who picked up the money??? One way of stopping scammers is to make it harder for them to carry out there scam. Now if Western Union is paying these transfers out to individuals other than those whose name is the name I (or any sender) has written on the form at time of transfer, then they are at fault. Even if this scammer is presenting Western Union with the correct transfer #, he is still not identifying himself.

OK, if I'm starting to irritate, I apologize. Just trying to exhaust an angle, and just haven't been convinced yet that I have.


How do you know they are not identifying themselves when they pick up the money. Would it be all that difficult to make false passports, ID's, or drivers licenses to have each and every name they use to get the money. If you notice most of the names are pretty much the same in all of the scams and even if they change the names up if they have the equipment to make fake id's then it would take little time to make a new one. In my early adult years (18-20) I had no trouble finding someone with the equipment and software to make a fake DL with a DL# that would pass all DOT tests so I am sure a scammer could get this same equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:47 pm 
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mumbs,
I get what you are saying (and I love those tv shows and movies too!)

Yes, I agree with you that WU should be able to tell you who picked up the money, and that the ONLY person who should be able to pick it up is the person that you named on the wire transfer documents, no matter how much other information they have on the transfer. I also agree with the other posters that the scammers could make a fake ID to match that fake name. Would making WU hold to the info on the wire transfer documentation (correct location and name with ID) cut down the number of scams that go through? Maybe.

But how do you get them to change their policy? A lawsuit? (We have gone over the idea of a class action lawsuit on this board may times. I have contacted lawyers personally from Masry and Vititoe, the lawfirm of Erin Brockovich fame, and they could not find enough to make a strong case.)

_________________
Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
Sign our petition http://www.change.org/actions/view/crea ... s_programs
Follow our blog http://scamvictimsunited.wordpress.com/
Find us on Twitter, Facebook and more http://www.retaggr.com/page/ShawnMosch
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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:06 pm 
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Posts: 11
Shawn and russellj84,

Thanks for engaging me to further this discourse. First, YES, fake ID's are most likely a possibility in this scam, and though not as easy to manufacture nowadays (not sure how many years ago you were 18-21 russellj84) they are still doable. However, i haven't come across the same TNT contact name (that is the escrow company used in this particular scam) after reading through dozens of victims of this scam. As often as this scammer is pulling this off, I would think making a new ID for each and every transaction may get overwhelming. Plus, you still have to have a picture that matched your actual face -- so you would be limited to locations you could use this ID at if they started putting names and faces together. I think the scammer has found a hole in Western Union's policies or something, for after I had wired the money I was then instructed to scan and email over the WU receipt from the transfer. This is not something required by Western Union, and it seems like it would be a lot of trouble for some people to even get access to a scanner to accomplish this. PLUS, you'd think the scammer would be trying to make it easier, rather than harder, on his victim.

---- I've got to leave a partial post, i apologize, but will pick up where I left off later. Actually, I had this thing all typed up and hit the wrong key and lost everything. Feel free to comment on this half though.

be back later.

mumbs


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:50 am
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Location: WI
Im 27 now and the fakes I had where completely homemade and all you had to do was provide a digital copy of a passport photo. They where made on the same style plastic that the newer state licenses use (the ones without the lamenent) and had all necessary holograms and colors and could be purchased saying you lived in any particular street. I had one that had my real name, real street address, and real birthday (year was different). I had a friend that had one that he gave to a cop and the cop couldn't tell. These where made right from a college students dorm room in about 20 minutes while the "customer" waited. I am sure the quality of ID in Nigeria is much lower so I would guess it would be extremely easy to make and would not take much time at all. The scammers would also not necessarily have to make a new ID for every scam since they do use the same names a good percentage of the time.

As for your scammer asking you to scan a copy of the WU receipt, most of the time they just ask for certain information from the receipt so they just give the #'s and pickup the cash.

Another possibility is these scammers goto the same WU store and have people on the take at that particular WU store so they don't get questioned about the pickups of funds under different names. Anything is possible with these people.


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:30 am 
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russellj84,

Just to clarify, this scammer is receiving his funds in London England, not Nigeria, so we are not talking 2nd or 3rd world country. ID's there are a bit more sophisticated. Also, from looking back at all the victim's postings of this particular scam, I didn't find one instance of the same name being used, so either this guy is just cranking out the IDs or he is using the Western Union wire transfer # in lieu of ID to claim the money.

As for your comment
Quote:
As for your scammer asking you to scan a copy of the WU receipt, most of the time they just ask for certain information from the receipt so they just give the #'s and pickup the cash
do you know if this is indeed happening, for if so, and you have documentation, I think this would grounds for a formal complaint (and possible suit) against Western Union. If you missed my post in which I recounted a chat session with Western Union, they were far from helpful, or direct for that matter. I really believe you're probably correct, or close, in your comment about
Quote:
Another possibility is these scammers goto the same WU store and have people on the take at that particular WU store so they don't get questioned about the pickups of funds under different names. Anything is possible with these people.
you may be right, and that would make a case against Western Union all the more plausible. After all, isn't this website about not only educating people about scams, but also stopping them? Here is one scam that I think would hit the shitter if Western Union wasn't allowed to make it so easy for him.

And Shawn, talking about TV/Movies and reality,I just can't help but revisit your past quote
Quote:
I have contacted lawyers personally from Masry and Vititoe, the lawfirm of Erin Brockovich fame, and they could not find enough to make a strong case
which shows that you and I share similar 'Hollywoodized' views of reality. Actually, I've got a father who is a retired attorney who said this is just the kind of case he loved to argue. He's got some spare time on his hands now and I've given him all my info, just for shits and giggles. WOW, and just now as I'm typing, I've just remembered that my wife's got a cousin who is a lawyer in Ireland who may be able to shed some light on UK law, etc. Now all we need is someone to have a brother-in-law who's a Brittish police detective and we'd be all set.

Again, thanks to all who contribute to my 'witch hunt' as well as those who do nothing more than read the post. PLEASE, if you have any info or have in fact been victimized in some way by this scam and Western Union was involved, share your story.

mumbs


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:36 am 
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international law...............in financial matters of this size, does not exist


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:53 am 
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Posts: 11
Reverse,

Quote:
international law...............in financial matters of this size, does not exist



Ah, you are so correct, that is why I've been repeatedly calling out for anyone who was scammed in a similar fashion or was victimized in a sham in which Western Union was involved. Obviously, my $300 claim has no voice, but a dozen, or even 10 dozen for that matter, may come across as more than just a whisper. My reference to an Irish lawyer wasn't for the sake of an international law suite, rather just someone that could advise or possibly even discover what the legal rights of the scammer, the victim and even Western Union are in this instance.


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:12 am 
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Location: WI
Mumbs,

Where did you say to wire the money too? I am curious about if you put the info as UK and then WU just rattled off the same info you gave them. Scammers do not typically work out of the UK as the UK will extradite to the US where Nigeria, Iran, and others will not so they like to know they will be safe from trouble.

As for a case against WU for not requiring a receipt, the scammer (just like a regular customer) would not need a copy of the receipt in order to pickup the wire transfer and would simply need the transfer #'s as it would not be convenient for a person waiting for the cash to wait for the receipt to come in the mail.

As for you not being able to find any info on the scammers name online it may be possible that it is a new name, or it could be possible that other victims did not post their story on any websites.

As for a case against WU for having people being bribed at the counters there would need to be proof and that would be hard to find since in all likely hood they are being paid cash and crooks don't usually issue receipts.

I would love to stop these scams from happening but the only possible way to do that is through education since getting WU to change their policies and getting the front line employees to follow the new policies at all of their locations will be dang near impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: VICTIM OF TNT/Craig's List/Western Union Scam?NEED YOUR HELP
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:05 pm 
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mumbs wrote:
And Shawn, talking about TV/Movies and reality,I just can't help but revisit your past quote
Quote:
I have contacted lawyers personally from Masry and Vititoe, the lawfirm of Erin Brockovich fame, and they could not find enough to make a strong case
which shows that you and I share similar 'Hollywoodized' views of reality.


Yes, and that is why I can relate to the road you want to try and take this down . . . I tried for a couple of years to take it down that road too, but after being told that it could not happen enough we increased the efforts on the education and awareness angle, since that seemed like it would have more success.

But if you CAN get this angle to work, I am all for it! I think I might even still have the list of victims who were willing to join a class action lawsuit. If you search the terms class action on this site, you may even find some old message threads . . . feel free to bring them back to life. I always thought that if we found a victim with a more "personal" connection to a lawyer, we would have a better shot at a lawsuit. Big law firms look at the numbers, while a person with a personal connection, like your father, wants to do it for the justice of doing the right thing for someone they care about.

Quote:
if you have any info or have in fact been victimized in some way by this scam and Western Union was involved, share your story.


If they were a victim of this scam, they would have had to use WU, Money Gram or some other money wiring service, so basically every victim would have a connection to some major money wiring service.

_________________
Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
Sign our petition http://www.change.org/actions/view/crea ... s_programs
Follow our blog http://scamvictimsunited.wordpress.com/
Find us on Twitter, Facebook and more http://www.retaggr.com/page/ShawnMosch
_______________________________________________
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