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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:28 am 
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Posts: 16
Location: Exeter, UK
Pennywise wrote:
David Modic wrote:
Probably not. I would, however, discuss why they allowed themselves to be scammed and what steps they plan for the future. Ultimately, I am more interested in what could be learned and changed, than who to blame.


But who would learn from that approach? The person that has been scammed or you?
Why not blame them? What's wrong with a good wake-up call? It can be more effective then pampering them.

I see a lot of scams. I know that people can fall for them and that it can also happen to me. I am not beyond that, but some scams are so extremely stupid that if you fall for that you have only yourself to blame.

Just look at these [...]

The fact that they send them must mean they have success with it, but would marketing like this work IRL?

BTW, I took your survey. I think it is a bit to much orientated on Americans, which means I had to struggle through the first pages.
In your sweetheart scams explanation you only mention Nigerians. Russians are about as big a part of it as Nigerians when it comes to sweetheart scams.


As I said before, I know that there are several approaches, and at least one includes blaming the victim. I know about them, I just don't agree. I certainly am not saying that everybody should whistle to my tune. Funnily enough this is the official stance of Nigerian Government - the victim is to blame, because they are greedy, that is why they don't prosecute scammers (look up Nigerian ambassador to the US's statement in 2003).

If patently obvious scams are successful, then they must push some buttons that are not so clearly visible, and they do. This is probably more a matter of quantity than anything else. We know that about 0.01% of scams are successful, that means that there is a real shotgun approach at work here. In 419 scams, according to National Consumer League reports, the average amount lost is $20.000, so even if there are many duds, it costs next to nothing to scale up, if you are a scammer, sooner or later somebody will respond.

Thanks for taking the survey - I am making allowances for non US citizens. Clearly, I, myself, am not one. On the other hand a huge percentage of respondents usually is. That does not necessarily mean that Americans are more likely to fall for scams, it just means they are more likely to fill out surveys and I am grateful for that. The places where I advertise are also a factor. I agree about the sweetheart swindles, but in the end, it does not really matter what nationality the scammer is - the mechanism is the same.

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Please take a moment to participate in my survey on scams here: http://survey.scamresearch.info//43356/lang-en

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:35 am 
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David Modic wrote:
As I said before, I know that there are several approaches, and at least one includes blaming the victim. I know about them, I just don't agree. I certainly am not saying that everybody should whistle to my tune. Funnily enough this is the official stance of Nigerian Government - the victim is to blame, because they are greedy, that is why they don't prosecute scammers (look up Nigerian ambassador to the US's statement in 2003).


I also do not agree with the "overall" assumption that ALL victims of ANY type of scam are greedy and therefore are "to blame". Maybe a LOT of that comes because I cannot see how anyone can think someone who was selling a car online, renting out a room or applying for a job did that out of "greed" and these are the situations that get so many people pulled into these scams. Once you are pulled in, if you do not know the signs you can get lost along the way.

Sports analogy . . . you have never played soccer before, and you are told that you just need to get the ball into the goal . . . go and do it. Then you get out there and the ref calls you for a hand ball . . . well no one TOLD you that you could not use your hands. You did not know all of the facts (rules) you needed to make the best choice about HOW to get that ball in the goal. So is that player "to blame" since no one told them the rules? Yes, they did the act that was called by the ref, but if they had known before (maybe from a parent or coach) would they have made this mistake?

With many of the counterfeit cashier’s check scams I see, people are told by the bank that the check is “clear”, “verified” or “good” a day or less, but they are NOT told that it could take a week OR MORE for the check to fully go through the clearing process and it could still be found counterfeit and they could be the ones liable . . . even AFTER the bank has released the money to them. The bank is not telling them “all the rules”.

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Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:21 pm 
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I never said ALL victims are to blame. Romance scam victims for one are not greedy at all, unless you think looking for love is being greedy. I said some are, but when it comes to scam victims and support boards victims have to be treated like God. Say one acted without thinking and you are up for punishment.

@ David: It does matter what nationality the scammer is. If you want to warn possible victims it is info that should be put out.

@ admin: That is a rather good sports anology, accept it applies to a kid that starts playing soccer. A grown-up new to the sport should do a little investigation what the sport is about.

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:12 am 
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Quote:
Yet, when it comes to scam victims the victim is never to blame.


This is not true. There have been many victims who have been charged with crimes and are doing time because of it.

Quote:
I said some are, but when it comes to scam victims and support boards victims have to be treated like God.


Most victims feel stupid for being scammed. Some have committed suicide because of being scammed. They really do not need any negative comments. What they need is help in coming to terms with being scammed and learning how to deal with being scammed.
------
We all base our decisions on life experiences most of the time. My life experiences have made me a bit jaded. The first one I remember was a puzzle contest. I first entered the contest from a magazine advertisement. I solved the puzzle and sent it off. Sometime later I received a notice that I was tied for third place and would need to solve another puzzle. This time there was a charge to solving the puzzle. I think it was about a dollar. Anyway I finished that puzzle and sent it in. Several more times, I really do not remember how many, I received a letter saying I was still in a tie. Then I receive a letter with a check made out to me for $100. I remember how excited I was when I saw the check. I then decided to read the letter. The letter stated if I cash the check I was agreeing to purchase a sewing machine for $300. So I learnt that I really did not win anything.

Another life lesson I learned was not to cash a check for anyone I did not know. A friend of mine had friends come to visit from out of state. They needed money and could not cash an out of state check. My friend talked me into cashing a check for them. It turned out the account had insufficient funds. So I was out that money.

It is because of the last life experience above that I am not as trusting. Some scams are so obvious to me. Like the 419 scams. I mean really someone wants to trust me by sending me over a million dollars and trust that I will send 90 percent of the money back. There are other scams such as this one. So should the “victim” share the responsibility for being scammed? In this case I would have to say yes. I mean there has to be some point in time after sending money for various fees that one should realize it is a scam.

The romance scams are not as easy to see that they are a scam. People who fall for this type of scam were only looking for love. Some victims come to realize it is a scam sooner than others. Most who find out they were scammed have a hard time admitting they were scammed. At the same time they are the ones who say it was not the “money” but the betrayal of trust that hurt the most.

While there are many more types of scams there is just one more I will touch on. The counterfeit cashier’s check scam. The reason this web site was created by Shawn and her husband. If you have not read their story I would strongly suggest you read Shaw’s blog. In this one anyone who is trying to sell, provide a service or rent something can fall victim. In this one it starts off by the posting on a site such as Craig’s list. Soon replies are sent stating an interest in what is being offered. The scammer will then tell the person they will send a check for more than what is being offered and tells the person to send some of the money to a third party for whatever reason they come up with. It is not until after the person has sent the money do they learn the check is a counterfeit. So now the victim is left with having to pay the money back and in some cases face legal problems.

Now back to the question, who should be blamed, the scammer or victim? Back before scams were in the news and the many anti-scam sites on the web, I would say the scammer was 100% to blame. Today because of the media and web sites such as this one who are getting the word out about scams I would say the blame is more like: 60% scammers for scamming, 30% victims, for not checking out the person who they are in contact with and 10% to those of us who know about scams, including the banks and wire transfer companies, but do nothing about getting the word out to those who do not know, for whatever reason they do not know.

I also believe anytime someone buys a computer there should be information included in the box about scams and how to prevent becoming a victim. It should be mandatory for all computer classes to include scam education and awareness programs.

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:33 am
Posts: 123
Janez wrote:
Quote:
Yet, when it comes to scam victims the victim is never to blame.


This is not true. There have been many victims who have been charged with crimes and are doing time because of it.


That's putting it in a total different context. David already pointed out the difference between the legal and social aspect.

Janez wrote:
Most victims feel...........Some have ........


So not all, yet all victims have to be treated the same. Since an analogy was used before I would like to use one of my own. One my old math teacher used a lot.
A seagull is a bird, but a bird does not have to be a seagull.

Romance scams are not that hard to see. If drop dead gorgeous women do not fall for you in real life, they also will not fall for uou on the internet. If a blue eyed blond haired woman is from mixed parents, Dad fom the State, Mum from Nigeria, she would not have blue eyes and blond hair, let alone a lilly white skin.

I do think your view on blame is refreshing. In their defence, Western Union does warn about scams. They actually should do something about the way money can be picked up.
I do not think a computer should come with a warning. Maybe it would be better if it came with an internet subscription.

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:12 am 
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Location: Exeter, UK
Pennywise wrote:
...
So not all, yet all victims have to be treated the same. Since an analogy was used before I would like to use one of my own. One my old math teacher used a lot.
A seagull is a bird, but a bird does not have to be a seagull.

Romance scams are not that hard to see. If drop dead gorgeous women do not fall for you in real life, they also will not fall for uou on the internet. If a blue eyed blond haired woman is from mixed parents, Dad fom the State, Mum from Nigeria, she would not have blue eyes and blond hair, let alone a lilly white skin.

The difference of our opinions comes from how we interpret the information we are given. To you, it seems, a person who falls for a romance scam is not very observant/intelligent and should be punished (correct me if I am wrong).

To me, such a person is lonely and desperate for human contact. I know how it feels to be lonely and have worked with many patients who are. I am not prepared to blame people for wanting genuine human contact. If anyone, I'll blame the society for making it so hard to experience it. I think lonely hearts scams (and others following the similar principle) are so insidious precisely for that exact reason - they seemingly offer something that we already expect from society but many times fail to get. I worked in the States for a while (in L.A.) and I have never before met more alienated people concentrated in one spot. Now, I know L.A. is not really representative for the States, but I can certainly see why many people there would be desperate to make some sort of connection.

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Please take a moment to participate in my survey on scams here: http://survey.scamresearch.info//43356/lang-en

My profile page: http://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/index.php?web_id=david_modic
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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:09 am 
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A person that falls for a scam should not be punished. They already have been. I just do not think that every person that has been scammed should be treated the same way.

Janez is right. Times have changed. Nowadays some scammers work over their victims for month, sometimes years. Those are the real victims. Others declare there undying love for you in the third mail they send you after getting in touch with you that day and if you send them $1000 they will book the next plane and come live with you forever. People that fall for this might be victims as well, but should not be treated with the same careful approach as the ones first mentioned. They may be a victim, but all they have lost is money.

The latest trend in scams is blackmail. A guy that is in a relation gets to talk on cam to a girl on the internet and gets caught on cam while masturbating. She threatens to expose him to the world by putting his video on Youtube and warn all his friends on Facebook so they can see it unless he pays.
How do we deal with this? We tell him he should not worry and ignore her completely, cause once she will understand there is no money coming her way she will give up and move on to the next victim. The video will never be posted cause she has nothing to gain with it.
Sorry, but I can not see this person as a victim. He should have kept his pecker in his pants. The victim in this case is the woman he has a relationship with.

Fact is, scams are changing and you can not put everything on Society. People have an own responsibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:25 am 
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 16
Location: Exeter, UK
Pennywise wrote:
A person that falls for a scam should not be punished. They already have been. I just do not think that every person that has been scammed should be treated the same way.

Janez is right. Times have changed. Nowadays some scammers work over their victims for month, sometimes years. Those are the real victims. Others declare there undying love for you in the third mail they send you after getting in touch with you that day and if you send them $1000 they will book the next plane and come live with you forever. People that fall for this might be victims as well, but should not be treated with the same careful approach as the ones first mentioned. They may be a victim, but all they have lost is money.

The latest trend in scams is blackmail. A guy that is in a relation gets to talk on cam to a girl on the internet and gets caught on cam while masturbating. She threatens to expose him to the world by putting his video on Youtube and warn all his friends on Facebook so they can see it unless he pays.
How do we deal with this? We tell him he should not worry and ignore her completely, cause once she will understand there is no money coming her way she will give up and move on to the next victim. The video will never be posted cause she has nothing to gain with it.
Sorry, but I can not see this person as a victim. He should have kept his pecker in his pants. The victim in this case is the woman he has a relationship with.

Fact is, scams are changing and you can not put everything on Society. People have an own responsibility.

First of all, I can certainly make an argument that society imposes the rules, although, being part of it, I tend to agree to them (and here we could get into a lengthy discussion about the social contract and whether it still holds). We can probably agree that different societies impose different rules, so whether you are victimized, really does depend (to a certain extent) on the society you live in. There are many examples I could give on that, but I am sure you can google them as well as I can.

I agree that masturbating to a web-cam session with a perfect stranger is perhaps not the smartest thing to do, although, I understand why people do it. You could also make an argument that while the masturbator is the victim of the blackmail, their partner is the victim of abuse and the masturbator is the offender, unless, of course they have both agreed that this is acceptable to them. In that case there is no grounds for blackmail and no victimization, again enforcing my argument.

How to deal with this? I was, at no point, saying that the person should go on as if nothing was happening. The definition of freedom is taking responsibility for your own choices (the alternative is anarchy), so I would say to this person to bite the bullet, talk to their partner and have a plan on how to make reparations. I would discuss blame to the extent as it pertains to guilt (in the sense that guilt is an emotion we feel when our behavior needs readjustment and resolving it is a process requiring several steps as therapists among us would know). There would still be no point in the discussion where I would say well, you've only got yourself to blame, so there. I would say, however, well, do you feel guilty? Why? (or Why not?) Why do you think people in general feel guilt? Do you enjoy experiencing this feeling? If you don't, what do you think you could do, to stop feeling it? etc, etc. I'll stop here, as this writing is turning into a therapy session :) and several requirements for a successful session are missing.

By the way, we now got 16 full responses. Thank you, those who participated. I am still looking for a lot more participants, so whenever you have the chance, please answer the questionnaire (the link is in my signature).

_________________
David Modic, EGF

Please take a moment to participate in my survey on scams here: http://survey.scamresearch.info//43356/lang-en

My profile page: http://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/index.php?web_id=david_modic
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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:48 pm 
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By having this discussion we keep this thread alive and in doing so we keep promoting your survey, so I will get back to you Dr. Phil :P

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:33 am 
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Pennywise wrote:
By having this discussion we keep this thread alive and in doing so we keep promoting your survey, so I will get back to you Dr. Phil :P


Sir, you have seen through my clever ruse :P

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Please take a moment to participate in my survey on scams here: http://survey.scamresearch.info//43356/lang-en

My profile page: http://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/index.php?web_id=david_modic
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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:03 am 
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David Modic wrote:
Sir, you have seen through my clever ruse :P


I never fall for a person trying to scam, uh sorry, trying to sell me something :wink:

To be honest I am rather curious about your view on scambaiters and victim support sites.

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Location: Exeter, UK
Pennywise wrote:
David Modic wrote:
Sir, you have seen through my clever ruse :P


I never fall for a person trying to scam, uh sorry, trying to sell me something :wink:

To be honest I am rather curious about your view on scambaiters and victim support sites.


I will gladly oblige a little later - I am, at the moment, in Pittsburgh, PA - attending Security and Human Behavior workshop at the Carnegie Mellon University. As soon as I get back to UK, I'll take some time and reply properly.

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Please take a moment to participate in my survey on scams here: http://survey.scamresearch.info//43356/lang-en

My profile page: http://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/index.php?web_id=david_modic
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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:37 am 
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Location: Exeter, UK
David Modic wrote:
Pennywise wrote:
David Modic wrote:
Sir, you have seen through my clever ruse :P

I never fall for a person trying to scam, uh sorry, trying to sell me something :wink:
To be honest I am rather curious about your view on scambaiters and victim support sites.

I will gladly oblige a little later - I am, at the moment, in Pittsburgh, PA - attending Security and Human Behavior workshop at the Carnegie Mellon University. As soon as I get back to UK, I'll take some time and reply properly.


Hi, I am back in the Old Blighty and can write a little more about what I think about scambaiting and victim support sites.

I am slightly ambivalent about both. I enjoy scambaiting sites, I like reading the exploits described there but am aware at the same time that for instance 419 scams result in a couple of (victims') deaths each year (literature supporting my claims on the subject exists on the Internet, for those who are interested), so scambaiting is not completely safe. In essence scambaiting is playing with fire. We know that some people choose to play with fire and are reasonably good at doing it (for example circus artists or arsonits :) ), but they are certainly not good at it because they would not be aware of the consequences. I guess, what I am trying to say is - I think scambaiting is a valuable service, one that brings joy to many victims, but scambaiters should be aware of the risks. Some undoubtedly are, but I am not sure whether all of them are.

As far as victim support sites go, I believe they provide a valuable service, while having several drawbacks at the same time - their retention is, I guess, pretty low (at least if we judge by my experiment response rate here :P - out of 25000 members of this site, about 20 have responded to the experiment so far, which leads me to believe that many people come to such sites to find answers, register, find them, but not stay here for longer); they concentrate victims in one place, which is something scammers might be particularly pleased with. Since I joined this site I have apparently been put on many sucker lists - I have never before gotten so many fraudulent emails in such a short period of time. I can't prove causality and I am not really complaining anyway - all of those emails are going into my PhD in one way or another :). I can easily imagine, though, that other members wouldn't appreciate getting so many scams delivered to their mailbox. My spam filters are off - I look for scams, not block them, that is perhaps why I notice an increase. The support value of sites like these, however, should not be underestimated. I think it is priceless, although I find it bitter-sweet that on an institutional level there is not much effort put into helping the victims, so in a sense these sites fill a niche that should have been filled already.

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David Modic, EGF

Please take a moment to participate in my survey on scams here: http://survey.scamresearch.info//43356/lang-en

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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:40 am 
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David Modic wrote:
As far as victim support sites go, I believe they provide a valuable service, while having several drawbacks at the same time - their retention is, I guess, pretty low (at least if we judge by my experiment response rate here :P - out of 25000 members of this site, about 20 have responded to the experiment so far, which leads me to believe that many people come to such sites to find answers, register, find them, but not stay here for longer);.


I would agree with you . . . many people join these types of sites, get the info they need or post info about their scammer and then never come back. It is sad, because I feel that if more people stayed in touch with us they would learn more about new scams out there and we would have more numbers to make in impact on projects like yours, working with the media, working with lawmakers, etc.

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Shawn Mosch
Co-Founder of http://ScamVictimsUnited.com
There is strength in numbers!

Share your story with the media and educate others about scams! Details here http://scamvictimsunited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6319
Sign our petition http://www.change.org/actions/view/crea ... s_programs
Follow our blog http://scamvictimsunited.wordpress.com/
Find us on Twitter, Facebook and more http://www.retaggr.com/page/ShawnMosch
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 Post subject: Re: Giving the chance to speak up
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:05 am 
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That number of 25000 is not realistic at all. Many of those signed up for totally different reasons. Just look at the number of people that have a website address listed in their profile. Those are neither victims or people willing to help.

@ David

You say scambaiting is valuable cause it brings joy to many victims. Baiters claim to do it cause by wasting scammers time, they prevent them from targetting real victims, but aren't they in fact adding to thge problem? A victim scammed wants revenge. Why wouldn't a scammer baited wants the same? It sure will not make him feel sorry for his next victim.

I am not talking about this victim support site, cause it is different, but most seem to be stuck in their own feeling of being right and know how support has to be given. Isn't it true that amateur psychologists cause more harm then good?

BTW, baiting isn't that dangerous. The deaths you mention aren't baiters.

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